Riser Twist? Full Stalls? Go do SIV. March 27th – March 28th 2019 Group Chat Record

(Isaac Lammers) #1

Riser Twist? Full Stalls? Go do SIV. March 27th – March 28th Group Chat Record

3/27/19, 9:42 AM –(unknown): https://youtu.be/PyRWfZ3eZ6E

3/27/19, 9:44 AM – (unknown): Would anyone mind weighing in on how to avoid a riser twist in full stall (symmetrical hands of course), but more importantly, how to deal with one once in it? I’m guessing stay in it, get stable backfly, and kick out…?

3/27/19, 9:45 AM - (unknown):: Seems like there’s a lot of SIV lessons in this video

3/27/19, 9:47 AM - (unknown):: I’m guessing he didn’t keep his body between the risers enough

3/27/19, 9:49 AM - Kris Holub: First, don’t keep f***ing it up. If you try to actively fly it you’re gonna have a bad time. Bring your hands to the flyback position, center your weight, and hold it there in spite of the wing moving around. Grab your risers if you have to to keep your hands stable (though it’s not necessary once you develop the hand-eye coordination).

Second, be comfortable hanging out in the backfly position. It’s a safe and stable configuation that you can hang out in for a long time, the sink rate is quite low, actually not much more so than a reserve ride. Stay in it and avoid the temptation to exit until it calms down and stabilizes.

Third, when you do go for the exit, commit to it and allow the wing to start flying again. This guy kept re-stalling it, panicked, and let it become assymetric.

If it does riser twist, restall it immediately. It is imperative to prevent it from winding up into a spiral at all costs. Hold the back fly and try to twist out. Advanced maneuver: if you can remember which side spun forward, pull that same side brake deeper to spin out the twists.

If you can’t untwist and you hold the full stall, it is a much more favorable position to throw from than allowing it to SAT

3/27/19, 9:50 AM - James Drewett: Did the instructor on the radio not know that he was twisted, threw the reserve & that the reserve was fouled? Or did he want the pilot to initiate the stall by grabbing the lines above the twist? [/beginner question]

3/27/19, 9:52 AM - (unknown):: Thanks Kris, I think that covers it all. It seems the instructor couldn’t see him well enough to recognize he was twisted until the autorotation started

3/27/19, 9:52 AM - Kris Holub: He either couldn’t tell or wanted him to stall it again anyway. Often the twists are too high to actually be able to reach above them and if you let go of the brakes it can shoot from the stall really hard

3/27/19, 9:53 AM - Kris Holub: <Media omitted>

3/27/19, 9:55 AM - Chris: that may be the most relaxed deployment I’ve ever seen

3/27/19, 9:57 AM - (unknown):: Looks like you were getting pretty stable and making progress there, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen many recoveries from that many twists

3/27/19, 9:57 AM - (unknown):: Most people seem to panic or give up immediately and throw. Nice work

3/27/19, 10:00 AM - Kris Holub: Yeah I think if I had been more patient in the beginning and tried to do less (or the right input) it may have resolved. I’d say 95% of the time people try to do too much and overcontrol the glider until it reaches an unrecoverable configuration.

3/27/19, 10:01 AM - (unknown):: (Not to pretend like I know anything about acro)

3/27/19, 10:02 AM - Kris Holub: The best thing you can do is visualize your procedure so it’s automatic. Tuck your legs. center your weight, fully commit to stalling it all the way, then have arms of steel and hold that flyback while keeping your weight centered until it calms down

3/27/19, 10:02 AM - Kris Holub: your stalls will probably start at at least 2000’/min and have a sink rate of ~1200’/min so you have all the time in the world to be patient and wait for the right exit

3/27/19, 10:03 AM - Kris Holub: This message was deleted

3/27/19, 10:03 AM - Kris Holub: start at 2000’*

3/27/19, 10:03 AM - (unknown): That was really informative! I’d chime in from the average Joe that one time stalling my glider I let my left hand up too high and the glider shot forward really aggressive and asymmetric, but I brought my left hand back to back fly and it stabilized instantly. Was cool to see how well that works (before things go real twisted). So seconding Kris^

3/27/19, 10:04 AM - Kris Holub: Plus you can ride that full stall all the way into the water and be fine. Hell, in a worst case scenario you might be able to ride backfly into the ground and get away with minor injuries (not recommended to try)

3/27/19, 10:52 AM - (unknown): <Media omitted>

3/27/19, 10:55 AM - Kris Holub: Is that you(

3/27/19, 10:55 AM - Kris Holub: ?

3/27/19, 10:55 AM -(unknown): Yes! Many many eons ago.

3/27/19, 10:57 AM - Chris: that looked pretty great (not that I can actually judge)… I feel like every week this group just keeps showing me how much I have to learn still :slight_smile:

3/27/19, 10:59 AM - (unknown): I had to be patient because it was trying to riser twist.

3/27/19, 10:59 AM - Kris Holub: Spin got a bit wild early because the inside brake was let up too much too early. Glider was already flying or about to at 0:10 but was restalled into a messy cascade

3/27/19, 11:01 AM - (unknown): Agreed!

3/27/19, 11:02 AM - (unknown):: I think it would’ve been more stable if the pilot had toggle puppies ™ equipped

3/27/19, 11:03 AM - Chris: yeah, I did hear that toggle puppies increase your flying ability by at least 85%

3/27/19, 11:03 AM - (unknown): Lol

3/27/19, 11:04 AM - Kris Holub: But the cascade was handled well, good job staying patient and keeping it in back fly. awesome example :fist_right:

3/27/19, 11:05 AM - (unknown):: I lost 500’ of altitude in doing so.

3/27/19, 11:07 AM - Isaac Lammers: Was that intentional or because of a collapse?

3/27/19, 11:08 AM - (unknown): Intentional.

3/27/19, 11:13 AM - (unknown):: In order to carry out a controlled/intentional stall, do you really need to pull that aggressively though? If I were to stall, I think I would gradually pull both brakes symmetrically until it fell back and then bury the brakes.

3/27/19, 11:15 AM - (unknown): I wanted to spin it hard to see the result. That’s why I pulled it down so aggressively.

3/27/19, 11:15 AM - (unknown): Gotcha :ok_hand:t4:

3/27/19, 11:16 AM - Kris Holub: The more aggressively you stall, the greater the pendulum and the more dynamic the stall is, with correspondingly messy stall ball phase if you don’t skip that and go to fly back. At the extreme end of the spectrum you can full stall after rapidly exiting a deep spiral, catapulting high above the horizon. The potential disadvantage of doing it super slow is it is likely to spin if you don’t fully commit to the stall once it gets close. Slowing down to min sink before pushing into full stall is a good compromise and a nice spot to learn from, plus more similar to how you might accidentally stall

3/27/19, 11:18 AM - (unknown): If I’m going to stall out though, I’m going to pull brakes down below my seat so that it falls back behind me and resets the glider, for instance clearing a cravat, and then would move my hands up symmetrically so that it can back fly, become stable over head and then let it restart.

3/27/19, 11:18 AM - (unknown):: <Media omitted>

3/27/19, 11:19 AM - Kris Holub: All the same rules apply to spins as well. Slowing down gives a more mellow spin without so much oscillation, with the other and of the spectrum being a sick radical mactwist

3/27/19, 11:20 AM - Chris: well that answers that, sick radical is what I always go for

3/27/19, 11:20 AM - Kris Holub: If you pull it harder and faster more exciting things happen

3/27/19, 11:33 AM - (unknown):: I love these posts!

It would be great to get a group of experienced pilots to review a bunch of videos and talk through the different cause and effect methodologies with us less accomplished paragliding pilots.? I have so many questions and would spring for the pizza!

3/27/19, 11:34 AM - Kris Holub: Ive thought it would be neat to do a "spot the reserve toss" video viewing, watching incidents (good and bad) and having the audience decide when they would have tossed, or not

3/27/19, 11:35 AM - Kris Holub: Such a huge part is maintaining altitude awareness and knowing when to give up

3/27/19, 11:56 AM - Kris Holub: <Media omitted>

3/27/19, 11:57 AM - Ariann Tudor: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvhQulplmGz/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=j9jxp77k0xhy

3/27/19, 11:57 AM - (unknown): Maybe we can incorporate this idea into the next RMHPA meeting…?

3/27/19, 11:57 AM - Ariann Tudor: Meanwhile in France

3/27/19, 12:06 PM - Chris: @(unknown): - looks like you stalled -> backfly -> recovered, but the whole backfly part was so quick I’m not sure it was even there… could you explain in more detail? and how much height did you lose on that?

3/27/19, 12:10 PM - Kris Holub: maybe 50 feet? The stall ball component isn’t actually a necessary part of the full stall, but it’s there to make sure that students do not do the only catastrophic thing you can’t do - allow the glider to shoot with lots of pendulum energy and fall into it. So it is taught this way because messy riser twists are preferable. Once you become comfortable with the stall you won’t allow it to shoot so you can skip that stage and go straight to backfly. When in backfly you are flying backwards so the relative wind blows the stuck tips forwards and away from the lines, so you only need to be in it for a moment, then exit when the pitching window presents itself

3/27/19, 12:11 PM - Kris Holub: <Media omitted>

3/27/19, 12:19 PM - Kris Holub: https://youtu.be/5FkJGyl-GGk

Theo de blic has an excellent tutorial detailing the progression

3/27/19, 12:21 PM - (unknown): That was clean Kris!

3/27/19, 3:17 PM - (unknown):: i have the jocky sanderson security in flight dvd. great aerial video of collapses and recovery from multiple views. very helpfull.

3/27/19, 3:19 PM - (unknown): the JS dvd also shows the manuevers on B wing and on a D wing so u can see the differences.

3/27/19, 3:20 PM - Chris: I would also recommend the masteracro series

3/27/19, 3:22 PM - (unknown):: watching the JS dvd saved my bacon a few years ago. i used what i learned from it to get down on a big turbulent day.

3/27/19, 3:24 PM - (unknown): of course, taking an SIV was great but seeing the multiple views in these videos helps

3/28/19, 7:56 AM - (unknown): Once I threw my reserve above Golden Gate Canyon. My wing had a huge frontal on a southy day and opened asymmetrically and started to pinwheel. I got about seven or more riser twists that went up higher than I could reach. My wing went into a incredibly hard spiral dive. The G forces were incredible. I could no longer even raise my hands to try to untwist. After a while I couldn’t tell how high I was anymore and that’s when I threw. I landed on a hillside deep in the canyon. My main mistake was that I did not address the riser twist right away I just was sort of stunned by it and marveled at it for too long. You’ve got to get that riser twist right away by grabbing above the twist. After about three twists you lose control of your breaks. Once the wing was established in the spiral there was no way out I tried everything I had a lot of time. The other thing that really contributed to the accident was that I was flying a D wing. These wings do that sort of thing way more easily than sport wings. I will never give up my safety margin by flying a D again.

3/28/19, 8:52 AM - (unknown): thanks for that insight Ed. i have thought that one option if you get into a bad twist might be to use a hook knife to cut some lines. you would need to toss but it might reduce the spiral. is that a reasonable option or not?

3/28/19, 8:55 AM - (unknown):: This is exactly what happened to me, the wing wing re inflated with at least 3 twists and continued to pinwheel into more. My first mistake was to fly that old “sexy bitch” of a wing. The second mistake was to try to untwist that thing. I wasted valuable time doing that. Once I realized I had to get the reserve out instead, I was in a panic because of the g forces. I could not get the reserve out with one hand, so i reached for the handle with both hands. This made the wing pitch down with twice the speed. I couldn’t believe how fast that thing was rotating and surprised that I didn’t black out from that. But in the end I could not get that reserve out in enough time to open. I think k i needed another 30 seconds.

3/28/19, 8:55 AM - Kris Holub: No, just toss. You’ll waste altitude fumbling with your knife you could be using to wind up for a good throw and/or yanking on the bridle to clear an entanglement

3/28/19, 9:01 AM - Mike Chilcoat: As a 1 season under my belt P2, I don’t post on this thread much, but read everything. I really appreciate the insight and experience you guys are sharing. :raised_hands:t2::pray:t2::pray:t2::raised_hands:t2: Thanks!

3/28/19, 9:05 AM - Chris: To add to Ed’s post - this can even happen to lower class wings - I tossed in a similar situation when I hit a dusty when landing. I was probably only 100 feet off the ground, but still threw and it worked. So I guess I’m saying, even on a wing that isn’t spicy, you have to stay aware and don’t just trust your gear blindly

3/28/19, 9:15 AM - (unknown): thanks. Mike, this club is very helpful. lots of advice and experience. best to learn from experience of others than to ad lib when a situation arises.

3/28/19, 9:16 AM - Kris Holub: Mid-air is not the ideal place to be exploring innovating parachute rigging techniques :wink:

3/28/19, 9:19 AM - (unknown): yep. toss, then use the hook knife only if you cant manage to disable the pg and you star downplaning.

3/28/19, 9:21 AM - Kris Holub: Just grab any line(s) you can and start reeling it in. A lines will collapse it, B and C lines will stall it. Once the profile is broken you can keep yarding on the glider until its in your lap. This works well if you get caught ground handling or landing in high winds too

3/28/19, 9:22 AM - Kris Holub: Another option is to use quick outs

3/28/19, 9:28 AM - (unknown): thanks. i was thinking of it only if that wasnt working for some reason. last resort scenario.

3/28/19, 9:28 AM - Kris Holub: Sure, never hurts to have extra ideas in the toolkit. A hook knife IS super helpful to fly with just in case

3/28/19, 9:29 AM - Kris Holub: I met a test pilot this past spring who was flying a new design and discovered after takeoff that it was trimmed incorrectly and was constantly teetering on the edge of deep stall. he whipped out his hook knife and started cutting C lines until it started flying correctly and he could go land

3/28/19, 9:31 AM - Larry Tudor: Test pilots don’t pay for their own stuff

3/28/19, 9:33 AM - Mike Chilcoat: Soaking this stuff in like a sponge! :call_me_hand:t2:

3/28/19, 9:38 AM - Benzie: I had a similar thing happen to me about 6 years ago over lookout, took my biggest frontal EVER, to me with only 5 years of flying felt like a full stall, now that I’ve been through actual full stalls, big frontals do have the same characteristics of full stalls, it was interesting to see how fast my body went up and my wing behind me, then the unthinkable happened. Due to my limited experience to know what do next the wing shot forward (went back to flying mode as it should) I didn’t catch the surge and it went under me, thankfully for some reason I didn’t fall into the wing. I then went into a hard spiral / SAT? I probably did 5 or 6 spirals, went for my reserve handle but didn’t pull for some reason. I went back to my breaks and slowed one side down and the wing went back to flying about 300’ AGL from the top of wind saddle south of the look out launch. This was on my Gradient 3 (mid B). I was lucky that my wing didn’t come out asymmetrically or I would have for sure have tossed. SIV SIV SIV and learn how to control that surge when the wing come back to flying after an event similar to a full stall.

My question is…would it be beneficial to put your wing into a full stall after a big frontal like that until things settle down for you to come out cleaner and less of a surge??

Also, wanted to add my 2 cents, those new pilots 1-5 years, just when you think you know everything you need to know just remember you really don’t. You will always be learning how to fly better and safer 5,10,15,20 years later. Don’t take your 2 years of flying and think you are the king of your wing, because that’s when it will bite you. Take SIV’s every year if you can afford it and keep learning from everyone that you can. I’m on year 12 and have so much more to learn.

3/28/19, 9:43 AM - Kris Holub: If you get on the frontal early you can check and mitigate it with brake inputs. but once it’s gone, hands up hands up hands up. You lose airspeed and gain sink rate very quickly with the wing balled up behind you, so when the wing reopens you suddenly have a very high angle of attack (the angle of the relative wind is coming much more from below you than in front) so it only takes a tiny amount of brake to put it into a deep stall. I think most people screw themselves in frontals because they try to brake it, end up in a deep stall without realizing it, and then cascade into twists

3/28/19, 9:44 AM - (unknown):: Absolutely put the wing into stall when a big blowout occurs. This is actually a p3 test question

3/28/19, 9:45 AM - (unknown): It’s because of the impending surge that is incredibly powerful. And I have had that same sexy bitch put me into infinite tumble from that surge

3/28/19, 9:49 AM - Kris Holub: Yeah you have to check the surge, but let it dive somewhat to regain some airspeed. It’s very easy to over it and now be in a stall. That’s one reason why practicing rapid spiral exits is helpful, to learn the timing and magnitude to catch a surge.

It also depends on your glider. Here’s the criteria for the EN tests http://www.paragliding.org/book/en/En926-2summary.pdf

to be certified at the lower classes, the gliders are designed to recover without any pilot input, including allowing it to shoot after a frontal

3/28/19, 9:51 AM - (unknown): taking an SIV course was huge in learning the wing and how to be more comfortable flying. need a refresher SIV this season.

3/28/19, 9:55 AM - Benzie: I know how to get out of a small front that wasn’t my question it’s the big ones that act like a full stall, jobin answered it by keeping it stalled until things settle, as I should have, I don’t there is much I could have done to stop it from surging so strongly, I’ve had minor frontals over the years.

3/28/19, 9:55 AM - Benzie: *frontal

3/28/19, 9:56 AM - Benzie: I’ve had minor frontals over the years, that I know not to put too much break on and let it fly, those are the easy ones to handle

3/28/19, 9:57 AM - Benzie: LOL P3 question, that was eons ago.

3/28/19, 9:58 AM - Benzie: This message was deleted

3/28/19, 9:59 AM - Benzie: This message was deleted

3/28/19, 9:59 AM - Benzie: I think with my surge it could have been an infinite tumble if it wasn’t a mid B wing

3/28/19, 10:00 AM - (unknown):: Stalls are pilot induced. That’s a way to know whether it’s a frontal or not.

3/28/19, 10:00 AM - Benzie: Acts like a stall but is not a stall, it’s those big ass frontals

3/28/19, 10:01 AM - Kris Holub: you can reef your As out of the sky in the most massive frontal possible and it doesn’t shoot anywhere close to as hard as a stall

3/28/19, 10:02 AM - Benzie: That’s the think I really don’t think you can achieve true life frontals during an SIV.

3/28/19, 10:02 AM - Kris Holub: Its very easy to perceive it has being much higher than it really is. Like people think they are over the top of their wing on wingovers when they are 10 degrees over the horizon

3/28/19, 10:03 AM - Benzie: I was going up in a strong thermal my vario didn’t have anymore beeps it was just a scream then I fell out and frontal’d

3/28/19, 10:04 AM - Kris Holub: Maybe the wing was already diving from the pendulum motion, so it frontals while you swing through

3/28/19, 10:05 AM - Benzie: I don’t believe I was pulling any breaks, enough to stall it. You may be correct about the angle all I remember that it surged hard and I was looking at it and seeing the ground below.

3/28/19, 10:06 AM - Benzie: looking at the bottom of it, I felt weightless for a bit then it went into a spiral.

3/28/19, 10:07 AM - Kris Holub: For sure it can shoot hard, possibly hard enough to frontal again or cascade, but nowhere close to enough to put you into the wing

3/28/19, 10:08 AM - Benzie: Well thankfully it did not put me in the wing. Ask @13034355343 he saw it happen from above. For SIV I think you would have to be on full bar and wrench down has fast as possible on the A’s to almost get the same as a real life frontal.

3/28/19, 10:09 AM - Kris Holub: But in any case, stalling it is the default move is pretty harsh. Stalls are useful to clear malfunctions or to interrupt a cascade, but the best answer is usually to let it fly and just keep it in check from doing anything too wild

3/28/19, 10:10 AM - Benzie: :+1:

3/28/19, 10:12 AM - (unknown): Bit long but great input on modern gliders by Ozne teat pilot Russel, excellent comp pilot as well.

3/28/19, 10:13 AM - (unknown): *test

3/28/19, 10:16 AM - (unknown):: You may stall it and then end up in a worse situation (spin, riser twist, etc…) if you don’t have plenty of practice with stalling and recovery, whereas the frontal would have most likely recovered (if you let it) and wouldn’t have lost near as much altitude and continued on a straight heading.

3/28/19, 10:17 AM - Benzie: This is great thanks for sharing, I’ve seen this before but it’s great to hear it again.

3/28/19, 10:17 AM - Kris Holub: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDv0np9qTBU

I did find this pretty wild fully accelerated one

3/28/19, 10:29 AM - Kris Holub: Ah ok reading the description he stayed on bar during the collapse, so it surged super aggressively. That’s one thing to know about the EN tests - it’s pilots completely doing nothing and centering their weight. YMMV as you handle the glider as anything but a passenger

3/28/19, 10:33 AM - Benzie: this is perfect and more to real world situations, it happens just that fast and when you aren’t expecting it it’s very very very difficult to react correctly to not make it worse. Doing an SIV is great and a must year after year.

3/28/19, 10:35 AM - Mike Chilcoat: I haven’t done an SiV yet. This spring is the plan but does anyone ever do anything like visualization, and/or practice reacting to various situations just sitting in a harness hanging at home, in an effort to ingrain reactions or avert over reaction? Just curious if other pilots do that. I do…

3/28/19, 10:35 AM - Kris Holub: Yes, visualization is super useful, especially for more complicated maneuvers

3/28/19, 10:36 AM - Kris Holub: It’s also helpful to do negative visualizations and dealing with a problem

3/28/19, 10:37 AM - Mike Chilcoat: :+1:t2: I would think all that really really helps.

3/28/19, 10:37 AM - Kris Holub: But there’s no substitute for repetitions

3/28/19, 10:37 AM - Benzie: for sure,

3/28/19, 10:38 AM - Mike Chilcoat: Definitely!

3/28/19, 10:42 AM - (unknown): I think visualization, or in another words thinking about what it is that you would do is really useful. Years ago before, I knew how to spiral well, I had spent some time trying to visualize what I would do if I needed to spiral hard. That day came once when I was getting cloud sucked at Mount Herman at 15,000 feet and getting snowed on. I had to do a spiral or I was going to have a big problem but I really had never done a good spiral. Because I had visualized the maneuver in my mind I was actually able to do it and figure it out on the fly. Wasn’t pretty but it worked.

3/28/19, 10:42 AM - (unknown):: Would it be possible to create a PG specific discussion group for these sorts of discussions so we can keep this RMHPA General chat just for club level messages that affect all members?

3/28/19, 11:54 AM -(unknown):: Lots of stuff here and maybe I skimmed past it. But having 2 reserves at two locations under seat and front mount would be more beneficial than realized in that if you can’t reach one you could hopefully reach the other.

(Don Hillmuth) #2

Thanks for posting this super valuable discussion.

(Isaac Lammers) #3

I texted the following to the general group chat but I’ll also comment on the forum.

I’m not sure if this is helpful or hurtful. Im sure there will be mixed reviews. I was playing around with ways to save the group chats and found out you can export it to a .txt file. With some editing (removed messages of people leaving the chat, or messages that didnt really add value) to get below the character count for the forum, I was able to post the chat record from the past two days. If this is something that people like I will try to pay attention to when a great discussion happens and ‘archive’ it to the forum. If we don’t like it I’ll take the post down. I don’t have everyone’s phone numbers associated with names which is why I removed phone numbers and just entered (unknown). If I do have your contact info in my phone your name shows up. So… thoughts?